I have found echolink to have many interesting contacts on it. There seems to be a great deal of hams that have gotten to a point in their life that they no longer can have HF equipment set up do to restraints of living conditions etc.. Also I have noticed a great deal of HF remote activiate for them to make contacts around the world there. Along with many repeaters and simplex links.

This is a mode of ham radio that is with out any kind of awards system that I can find anywhere. There is a great deal of interest in VOIP these days with ties out to rf connections to other areas of ham radio.

I wonder if eQSL has given any thought to being the first in creating some awards that could be earn for echolink users and in the process generate interest in eQSL system.

Unless I have over looked something I do not believe there is any awards or award systems for this mode of operation. It could be a award system of several or a few awards and create yet another area of interest for hams to work toward their in their interests.

Just my two cents and would be interested to hear others thoughts on this.

N7MNK - 73

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N7MNK Arthur Putnam

Why awards for voip? So also a telephone award directly from the companies would a great idea!

We are OM or telephonists?

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73 de Cosimo IW5ELL

Hi Cosmo,

I would agree if echolink was strictly a VOIP system, but for many it is not. I agree there are many that are strictly that. but for the other 2/3s of the echolink system is repeaters and simplex links. With RF connections to the ham community allowing access to which for many is the only way.

As for my connection to the echolink system I run a simplex link on 2meters that then is configured through Sat up link for the internet connection and back. Not a simply task for many non ham types for sure.

There is room in the ham community for all types of modes and operation of communication. If hams are to be in the front lines of discovery and research of new methods. There needs to be open mindness of what one or another views as a means of communication. Adaption of new ways and methods has been the success of new discoveries in my mind. One has to open the lid to the box to expand past the confines of the box.

I also noticed that alot of old hams that no longer have a large home and able to put up a RF working ham station are going to echolink to keep in contact with the community and reach out in a similar way of good fellowship of ham radio. I think it would be good for hams in the echolink system to have a system of awards that would keep them active in the mind and spirit of ham radio.

I see no harm in it. My two cents on it.

73
Arthur
N7MNK

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N7MNK Arthur Putnam

Hello Arthur,

imho in this case, the qsl would be right from you and the repeater, not from you and the other OM in qso. I'm waiting for a dx with west coast on low bands (40-80) from long time, if I could use a repeater, it would also be a dx?

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73 de Cosimo IW5ELL

Making a contact on HF bands such as 40-80 meters is a much harder method of making contact for DX for sure. Voice can be much harder than rtty or psk or code for that matter in certain conditions for sure. I do not disagree on that.

If you held a award such as WAS for voice on 80 meter I would consider that a great accomplishment of working that band and mode in knowing the difficulty for sure.

I am in no way saying that the requirements for an echolink award would or should be measured in the same way or viewed in the same many.

I do not view PSK the same as voice or CW or RTTY or packet for that matter. I remember once using a hand held via packet radio making contact with a NASA astronaut's return to earth, many years ago. I do not even consider this the same as 40-80 meters voice.

The fact of the matter of RTTY, PSK, IRP, CW and several other modes are using computers and connecting via many methods to RF. Are they all the same because they are not all using solely a radio to make the connection on the other end?

I am just saying we must be willing to adapt to the newsness ahead of us, in order to not be left behind in the dark age of non change.

Arthur

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N7MNK Arthur Putnam

There is no substantive difference between RTTY or PSK and CW or SSB Voice radio. All 4 are methods of transmitting a signal over RF from point A to point B. Whether you're banging two pieces of brass together, or using fleshy vocal cords to modulate air pressure waves as they impinge on a microphone, or using a computer to twiddle audio frequencies in a decodable way, at the end of the day, the signal goes out over radio from your antenna to you correspondent's antenna.

Echolink and IRLP are *NOT* methods of transmitting a signal over RF. Although there may well be RF involved at one or both ends, the primary medium is Internet, not radio. It is no more radio than is a telephone call (which may well use radio for part of the trip). It's not the computer that's the relevant bit, it's the primary transmission medium.

Technically speaking, there is no legal or other reason why any non-amateur could not use echolink. They could get the software or write their own, and as long as they went computer to computer, they wouldn't be breaking any rules or laws. This goes for pretend-amateur-radio like CQ100 as well. These VOIP methods are not amateur radio because they simply don't use radio.

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VE3OIJ P. Darin Cowan

Ah Ok I see your point as follows:

computer----------- Radio-----------computer is OK

Radio-------------Echolink (computer)------------Radio is not ok!


all seem to be multi- equipment to make the communication complete and both do use radio.

I do agree things that are not using radio is not Ham Radio for sure. If it does not use radio at all I really am not interested in it. If its just VOIP with out the use of Ham Radio I agree it is not the same at all. Skype is a good example of that.

If it has radio and uses the bands of Ham Radio what then is it?

N7MNK Arthur Putnam

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N7MNK Arthur Putnam

No, you're missing the point.

It's not the "computer" that's the problem. Echolink doesn't use a computer for anything more than a decoding device. At that point, there's no problem.

Here's the issue:

(sound generating device which may be but doesn't have to be a computer)---tranceiver \/\/\/\/\/ RADIO \/\/\/\/\/ tranceiver---(audio decoding device which may be but doesn't have to be a computer) is OK

tranceiver \/\/\/\/computer----- INTERNET ----- computer\/\/\/\/\/tranceiver is not OK

In fact, for a lot of echolink, it's more like this:

computer ----- INTERNET ----- computer

in the first one, the primary (only) transmission medium is RADIO.
in the second and third, the primary (and only necessary) transmission medium is INTERNET.

It's got nothing to do with computers. Computers are not what makes echolink and CQ100, and IRLP "not radio"... it is the complete lack of reliance on radio that makes them not radio.

Replace internet with "loudspeaker", "flashing lights", "infrared laser", whatever you like, it still wouldn't be amateur radio and it has nothing to do with the computer.

If it uses the internet to convey the message, it isn't radio, it's internet. if you take internet away, PSK, SSB, CW, RTTY and so forth still work. All echolink and IRLP traffic stops immediately if you do that, even if you're going from an HT to your local repeater's IRLP gateway... without internet, it's done. That's why echolink, IRLP, and CQ100 are not amateur radio.

It can be further demonstrated thus: if some random guy picks up an HT and calls you on the repeater, he is breaking the law if he doesn't have a licence. Similarly, if he uses a computer to send a PSK message at 14.070, he needs a licence or he's breaking the law. If that same guy logs onto CQ100 or sets up echolink on his computer and sends a message to your computer (both those programs work that way) he has broken no laws whatsoever. He does not need an amateur radio licence to use those programs (although the authors try to restrict it, that's not the force of law).

Here's the simplest way of all to look at it: Why don't we give DXCC for phone patches? You could, via amateur radio, use a telephone patch to work all 200ish countries on the planet. Just fire up the phone patch and dial up your DXCC! Phone patches are more radio than IRLP, echolink and CQ100.

Although IRLP/Echolink via a repeater is handy and is an excellent melding of amateur radio with internet technology, it's not really award-worthy when you can just dial up your DXCC over the internet via a HT (assuming you even bother with the HT because with echolink for sure you can just go computer to computer).

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VE3OIJ P. Darin Cowan
Edited by VE3OIJ P. Darin Cowan on Nov 17, 2009 at 08:41 PM

I use a RF 2m base station in simplex mode which is connected via Satelite to make the interenet connection for uplink and downlink, All connections coming into and out of my ham shack are RF for the echolink connection.

I know DX contesters now are using all kinds of software these days that allow them to send and make contacts via email networks and etc... to setup the contact in order to make their contact. Some are even meeting on skype first and then the radio contact. Hmm. But that is by side the point.

I have never asked that the award system be DX contesting by any means.

Lets say a award for working both ends with RF after making 100 confirm RF contacts via echolink. Then you could have a progresive system. Next award is 1000 contacts. Lets say award for rf contacts on 2m, 6m, HF bands and so on so forth.

By designing a award system that encourages RF on both sides.

If you have a award system no matter what the award is for and it is confirmed that both ends are hams such as via eqsl or ARRL then the non ham issue is not a issue. And by promoting our ham bands we are more likely to keep them.

Right now the 2 meter bands are being use very little compared to the 60's and 70's.. We have a new generation of kids growing up in the computer world with little to know interest in ham radio. And yet we promote that if it is not radio it is not ham. And yet the radios of today were built and layout by some computer program and robotic system somewhere and are no longer built by hams either, for the most part.

I enjoy working HF bands and do very often, and know full well that making a contact there is much more appreciate in effort in accomplishment on my part. Un like a echolink contact which is only computer to computer. But if a person learns to interface radio via simplex base station then uses their HT to talk through the base to reach echolink computer base station(internet). They have discovered RF interfacing. Which might lead to other areas also.

Also I believe it is a great way for Hams to keep others active in ham radio that have lost the means to keep a radio station do to some un seen trouble in life (have to move,, old age, apt, and many other things.)

I would agree with you that to make a bunch of DX contacts is stupid. But is there a way we could make award system that could be two fold?

1.) to create interest in amatuer radio beyond the tech lic and move toward RF bands and inter face with the world of networking?(Computer generation) and keep all are bands busy and well used.

2.) And still provide for those that wish to only use it as VOIP.

The packet radio stations of amateur radio that are using IRLP are getting all kinds of wright ups and these hams seem to be enjoying their area of the ham world.

I just think we need to think how can we make it work for ham radio and promote the hobby in a good way for others to expand in it. And use the RF yes! I agree on that for sure.

N7MNK

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N7MNK Arthur Putnam

I don't think we should be encouraging people who just want to do VoIP at all. There are plenty of existing systems that work well for anyone who wants to do VoIP, and there's no reason that people so inclined couldn't form groups of shut-in hams or whatever organization they desire to use those methods.

Having been a volunteer at the Canada Science and Technology Museum amateur station for years now, I can say with some confidence that the reason kids aren't getting into amateur radio has nothing to do with amateur radio not being internet based. The top reasons young people aren't interested are, in my experience:

1. A widespread perception that amateur radio is all old men and morse code. To this day, the face of amateur radio is morse code. Kids who visit us at the museum almost invariably comment "oh, my great grampa used to do that, he's got a morse code thing and would sit and send beeps". If anything about amateur radio absolutely must change in order to interest more young people it's the idea that amateur radio = morse code. That's the perception people have, right or wrong, and that MUST change or this hobby is doomed within a generation. It makes me cringe every time a museum visitor says it. As a point of principle, I almost never have a morse code key visible when I am at the station, and when I do, it's paddles only. What I say when morse code comes up is that code is a tool in our communications toolbox, just one of many, that has some advantages in some situations, just like other methods have advantages in other situations.

2. Amateur radio offers nothing as a hobby that can't be had elsewhere for less money and without an exam or licence. That's a tough one to break, because they're almost correct. We know, of course, that amateur radio is a highly educational hobby - but let's be honest here... when you were a teen would you do something because it's educational or because it was fun and by doing it you got some payoff that couldn't be had another way. With cell phones and VoIP and wireless internet, amateur radio has a tough row to hoe. Oddly, the lack of interest in radio among young people for the last 20 years means less radio engineers to design and build those cell phones and wireless networks, so maybe this one will correct itself in time when we can't build that stuff any more because there's nobody left who knows anything about radio. There's such an anti-academic bias these days that just about anything that has an exam up-front is viewed as a waste of time. That's unfortunate, but that's what we get in a culture where some uneducated guy can make 50 million playing a kids game like hockey or football, but a top engineer will top out around 125000 after a lifetime career.

So what wows the crowd?

Digital modes. Not IRLP and echolink, which make for a cute demo but even kids can see that in the age of Skype, it's nothing special. Using the computer to chat by radio around the world, though, kids love that. Kids love satellites too - working stations on a U/v satellite, or chatting to the space station... That really holds their interest. I've had great success keeping kids interested with video modes as well (SSTV, ATV)... the young folk love pictures. APRS is popular, once it is explained, among anyone who hikes, hunts or fishes because it can be used for safety.

There is surprising interest in QSL cards as well.

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VE3OIJ P. Darin Cowan
Edited by VE3OIJ P. Darin Cowan on Nov 19, 2009 at 06:30 PM